Owczarek środkowoazjatycki - Central Asian Ovtcharka

Yurga

Hello Anybody,

need help for pankreatic Insuffizienz.

Anybody on Enzyms (Kreon, Pankrex vet) suffering from bowel problems , please give advices how to get out of ??

Please help!
Thanks
Sandra

Yurga · Wysłany: Pon 13:42, 02 Mar 2009 Temat postu: Kaplan

Hello ,

I haven`t take any picture of kaplan into the forum for the longest time!

Why ?

Kaplan is not healthy and badly suffering to find a way to stay alive !

Long time ago I think carefully if it was o.K. to give fotos without saying a word about that ? What should I do ?

Its not my business to make lies to anybody or hide behind pictures.

Kaplan has been visiting 2 veterenary departments, but they could not help us - one vet was a specialist for gastroenterology and Ultraschalldiagnostic.

For a short time I found a therapy , but in December it stop working and so I`m standing at the total beginning.

We have been to natural therays too without a good result or hope.

To check all again we will move to a Professor and have a look at diagnostic once more.

Somehow I get a bad feeling and I`m so afraid of it at all - afraid of loosing once again.
What a pain in the ass !

Kaplans relations are all quiete well only Kaplan shows that symptoms.

If I would be able to find one more dog in that family tree and may be his/her therapy it would be very helpfull to make him stay alive !

---------------
Barbara /Margaret
I don`t want money back or even a new dog, really want nothing.

What matters is my poor Kaplan

and that you said that I have done something wrong to him - that makes me cry very often!

-----------

My private adress is [link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Thanks for listening
Sandra

maria · Wysłany: Śro 15:52, 04 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello Yurga, it`s a bad and very sad news. I`m really sorry.
I don`t understand exactly what Kaplan is suffering from?
What treatment did you try?
How did it start?
What is the diagnosis?

There is no reason to lie, why would you think so? Dogs suffer for many diseases - it happends (unfortunatly to often).

I hope he will be recovering soon, but please give us some more informations so we`d know what answers you need.

Take care, kisses for Kaplan.

Yurga · Wysłany: Śro 17:24, 04 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello Maria,

thanks for replying very much !

I will write step by step from the early begining and the symptoms I saw.

- first Kaplan has 8kg when he comes into our home. I actually do not know the weight of his mummy or even of Goliat. Yurgas weight at that time was 11kg, but she was not fat. kaplan was very small/little and skinny too.

- If I take Kaplan to the first feading I was shocked, he take the food in 30 secundes, full of stress and abnorm

- the next feeding times show exactly the same behaving, but also he had a aggression against other dogs when he eats why suffering badly from hunger. I have never seen that hunger in a dog before, a absence syndrom ?

When he eats so fast it can happen that HE IS VOMITING ALL THE FOOD OUT AFTER why eating so fast

- start training that , so he learned how to eat normal, but it take time. Also I have spoken to Barbara and a breeder here in germany about that.

- Kaplan was every morning coming to my bed and screaming why he needs food! It seems as if he had a clock in his body which said give me food!
The quality of food was very good given 5 times per day, but the excessiv hunger did not move away no matter what I´m going to feet him.

Yurga · Wysłany: Śro 17:39, 04 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

4 month

He got a ear infection and a smaller problem with the anal glands ! He was showed to our vet clinic before and we also look for the ears.Is he an allergic dog ?? For once I hear some intestinal noices.

In the age of 3 1/2 month he starts to eat dog faeces!

That symptom is staying up to now if I do not care and no matter if I use Vitamin B 12 or not !

I told that to my vet, but no idea in the age of 3 1/2 month!

So I read in my veterenary books - I don`t believe that I got a puppy which suffered from Pankreactic problems that is a sickness of german shepards I thought in the age of 3 1 /2 month.

In that time I believe its a absence syndrom from Vitamin B ( exactly B12 ).

This problems were not seen every day , but from time to time and I was wondering about his muscel building and how much food he needs (much more than my other dogs !!)

He starts to eat a brown frog, birds- so we go to the clinic saying something must be wrong he had excessiv badly hunger - no idea !

Kaplan grows and time goes by in all that month he eats and eats, smaller time he is vomiting after bones or after eating to fast again,also sometimes the water.

Weight was stabil, faeces comes 5-6 times per day since he was a puppy and thats to often, but he eats a lot.

In spring/summer last year Kaplan get Diarhoe with a bad smell and I went to the clinic for a big check up and tests in USA.

They said he is suffering from Pankreas insuffiziens!
We put him on Pankrex vet and a diet, but lots of blood come out of him.
He lost 15 kg at all very soon!

We went to another clinic, a specialist.
I have tried Kreon after that and for a time it works, but in a high dosis.

In December we have new episodes with bloddy diarhoe, vomiting, weight loosing and bad stomache ache.Gastitis problems too...

I have spocken to all Universities and hear lots of opinions what to do and how to go to the next tests.

kaplan has been on Metronidazol in the beginning, but it does not work he start vomiting after 10 days and did not stop diarhoe.

The last weeks have been very hard , natural therapy, Enzyms no matter what I do it does not work.
Kaplan has abnorm intestinal noices early in the morning, vomiting and bloddy diarhoe lost weight and run away from the food.Has big big hunger, but can`t eat in that episodes.

On monday we are going to the best clinic we know and can only pray to find a way.
I have taken losts of stuff to different labors (Bloodwork, Faeces) and also make smaller tests at home (big Urintests), provocation and elimination diet to check out. Ultraschalldiagnostic went wrong, cannot find the pancreas why kaplan was full of gas in the bowel.

In the moment I can only say that the Pankreaproblem is still known (Elastase (tested 3 times ), Spec 16 ...), I cannot say that he is a Sibo (small intestinal overgroth), Inflammatory bowel disease dog or had other bowel problems.Still believe the bowel problems come from bacteria overgroth depending on the wrong pancrea function, Liver was o.K in the first 3 big tests.

Have you ever work with that problem in Ovtcharkas even if no healing, but for keeping alive ?

Is that problem known in CAO`s or where should I look, we have checked the heart and will check thyreoid levels again.. also parasits like giardia,Amöbia ect. Leptospira, Parvovirosis again and again yet, hope to find a better result than the last. Diabetes check has passed too!

In the moment he is on elimination diet. Hirse and potatoes and best cow beef or turkeys without fat .

He must take small dinners often and best quality of meet

Maria if you have any idea or information please help

Kind regards for interest, hope you can help
Sandra

maria · Wysłany: Śro 18:54, 04 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

First of all I can see you`ve done more than most of dog owners would do. Kaplan is lucky to have you. It`s obviouse you`ve done everything you could already and it took a lot of stress to deal with such problems. I can understand that because I`ve had my dog illnesses to.

I know two cases of CAO with pankreactic problems - one of them is mine - my Glut have had an episode after the surgury. She was very sick, but after standart treatment and 3 months on Kreon it passed. I don`t really understand why it turned so well because I was expecting life long problems. Probably it was just reaction for medicines.
The other one is Zahar - his owner is registered on this forum. Zahar is sick, but he is doing well on Kreon - at last i remember his owner writing tha.

It is not a common disease in CAO, but it happends.

As far as I am concerned pancreatic problems may be a reaction for treatment or may come from mechanic trauma
It can also be genetic or be caused by autoagression.
Did the doctors tell you why is he sick?
It seems to me like he was sick from the beginning.

If you would send me tests results I could ask polish veterinarians, and ask their opinion. I don`t know if it will help but I can try.

I will send you my mail adress in private message.

Yurga · Wysłany: Śro 20:39, 04 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

thank you Maria !

I`m glad to find somebody to talk it over, just looking for my foult or why it went wrong .

I have made a day book for kaplan were I notice food (gramm), Dosis of medicine, faeces (color,smell) and everything around that,also fotos from the faeces Rolling Eyes

.

I know two cases of CAO with pankreactic problems - one of them is mine
I`m really sorry to hear that !
Was a trigger to find in both dogs ? How old are they when it broke through and how old are they yet. Do they get Diabetes mellitus too ?

I still believe I have not given a trigger to kaplan ( and if than unknown) why I saw that symptoms early. It was my foult to test not earlier and say that clear to the vet !

I have ask the specialist if it was possible to heal out if we react earlier, but he said he can`t answer he was not sure.

I haven`t understand how to detect that aggressiv form were you have a nekrosis. Do those of them vomite more or what do they show ?

Sure that Glut has a Insuffiziens or ist she suffering from Pankreatitis.
How was the treatment and how is it yet are their small symptoms ?

I thought in the Insuffiziens you have no episodes like those Pankreatitis dogs have ?

The Specialist said this form is depending on 2 opinions 1.gentic form shrinking pankreas
2. he was born like that and compensate a small part

When it broke out the diarhoe was smelling like decay with blood and mucus as if the whole bowel comes out Crying or Very sad

After pankrex vet we suffer from big light blood puddles in the faces only blood.
After higher dosis and new technic little better, but never good!

With kreon first dosis
Royal canin low fat 5- 6 times per day in the weight loosing time 130g RC per feeding & 50.000 Lipase per feeding. I use that 25.000 units packets 200 tabletts. I have taken kreon for 800 Euros yet.

So 5x50.000 per day , it works until Yurga got in heat and than Kaplans system start to struggle.
Stress seems to be a trigger for him.

But in that time with Royal canin we have itching at the mouth, ears, ear infections clear to see the old food allergy. Or react he on the pork in the Kreon I don`t know..

The University said I should give him more kreon I have given that for a short time.
I got the feeling as if he is belching, start to billow,flatulate and possible that the kreon make Ulzera in the bowel or even in the stomache depending on the PH fit?

Always when I hear that stomache and bowel noises early in the morning (4-7 O`clock) the episode starts after flatulate in the evening.Early morning blood and mucos in the faeces, somehow vomiting bile or foam start stretching the front feet or penetrated with very small faeces.

The blood is laying on the faeces or it can also be through it inside so that you can`t see it.
The faeces smells normaly acid if therapy works, color is from sand to yellow (liver/pancreas) we never got the real color back .

With the new meet/Hirse/Potaoe diet now I have him on 5000 Lipase units per feeding with more he get stomache age and more gas in the bowels.

Elastase in all measurements were bigger than 3 (normal (10-40 mikro/g).
TLI is bigger 1 normal bigger 5 (debatable 2,5-5 )

Only Ast (GOT) was in one measurements 29,2 U/L normaly 25
I will sent new results from the professor next week , we are going on monday, than I will also have newest result from bacteriology, parasits ect. and I scan the old and new results together.

My questions
What kind of diet has worked in Zahar and Glut ?
How many units do you use per feeding and how many gramm food, is it more a problem of Lipae, Protease or amylase in your dogs.

Have you problems with Gluten or reacting on other stuff.
Are episodes to see if Glut or Zohar have stress like heat from female or stress from guarding or whatever ...
Do you use milk thistle or something for sheltering liver or any other natural therapy which were helpfully ?

Have you taken soemthing for dysbacteria in the darm ?

How do you give the Kreonpellets? I take them into meet and look that Kaplan gulp them.

We have a Anamie in bloodresults and I have given small >Vitamin K1, Vitamin b 12,but no other vitamins why so much alergietrigger and I´m not sure after that worse episode.

So much writing and questions sorry, take up time Maria,don`t hurry . I will sent fotos tomorrow.

Much obliged for all !
Sandra

Jurga KK · Wysłany: Czw 1:08, 05 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Da radę na nasz przetłumaczyć ? wszystkiego nie rozumiem, a pies ma poważne problemy ... Sad

maria · Wysłany: Czw 11:56, 05 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Ok, ale nie wszystko naraz, prosze o cierpliwosc Embarassed

Poniewaz tlumaczenie jest dzieki uprzejmosci Zakira, ktory zgodzil sie umiescic je na forum.
To jest skrotowe tlumaczenie pierwszego posta.

Hello ,

I haven`t take any picture of kaplan into the forum for the longest time!

Why ?

Witam, od dawna nie wstawiałam żadnych zdjęć kapłana.
Dlaczego?

Kaplan is not healthy and badly suffering to find a way to stay alive !

Kaplan nie jest zdrowy i strasznie cierpi walcząc o utrzymanie się przy życiu.

Long time ago I think carefully if it was o.K. to give fotos without saying a word about that ? What should I do ?

Przez długi czas zastanawiałam się czy właściwie postępuje wstawiając zdjęcia i nie wspominając przy tym ani słowem o jego chorobie

Its not my business to make lies to anybody or hide behind pictures.

Przecież nie jest moim zadaniem kłamać chować za zdjęciam

Kaplan has been visiting 2 veterenary departments, but they could not help us - one vet was a specialist for gastroenterology and Ultraschalldiagnostic.

Kaplan był w dwóch klinika veterynaryjnych, ale nie mogli nam pomóc, pomimo że weterynarz jest specjalistą od gastrologii i diagnostyki USG

For a short time I found a therapy , but in December it stop working and so I`m standing at the total beginning.

Przez któtki czas wydawało się że wdrożono właściwą terapię, jednak przestała działać w Grudniu i sprawa powróciła do punktu wyjścia.

We have been to natural therays too without a good result or hope.

Próbowaliśmy medycyny naturalnej, bez skutków i nadzieji

To check all again we will move to a Professor and have a look at diagnostic once more.

Żeby sprawdzić wszystko jeszcze raz profesor ponownie zbadał i wykonał diagnostykę Kaplana kolejny raz.

Somehow I get a bad feeling and I`m so afraid of it at all - afraid of loosing once again.
What a pain in the ass !

Mam bardzo złe przeczucia i boję się że go utracę.

If I would be able to find one more dog in that family tree and may be his/her therapy it would be very helpfull to make him stay alive !

Gdybym tylko mogła dowiedzieć więcej czy podobna choroba występowała u psa z nim spokrewnionego, to mogłoby być pomocne w znalezieniu właściwej terapii która utrzymałaby go przy życiu.

Barbara /Margaret
I don`t want money back or even a new dog, really want nothing.

What matters is my poor Kaplan

and that you said that I have done something wrong to him - that makes me cry very often!

Barbara/Małgosiu
Nie chcę zwrotu pieniędzy za Kaplana ani nowego psa, nie chcę niczego

To co jest tutaj ważne to mój biedny Kaplan, i to że powiedziałaś że to moja wina, że ja mu coś zrobiłam, tak często płaczę z tego powodu.!

Prosba Yurgi zostala tez skopiowana na inne fora, mam nadzieje, ze uda sie jej jakos pomoc.

Yurga, your post has been copied and translated on other boards with more CAO owners. Hope you don`t mind: [link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Yurga · Wysłany: Czw 12:44, 05 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello Maria,

I`m just coming back from postoffice, have been sending the faeces away for new test again.

Its different Faeces from 3 days and I have mixed that completly to one.

Tests will including

all Parasits and Giardia Antigen
Amöbia, Liveregel, PCR, Anaplasma

Microbiology
Salmonellen
Clostridium perfringens & Enterotoxin
Parovirose Mykologie

If necessary I ask them to look for more.
Also we will check Leptospirose .

Yestderday it was a little bet better, but in the morning stomache noises again and running away from the food !

I`m afraid that they will have a mirroring from stomache and bowel on monday.

Here are some litaratur in english for people and dogs who suffer too

Here is something to learn in english University of Helsinki, Finland [link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

What makes me afraid are stories like that
Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency combined with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus in a juvenile German shepherd dog
R. Neiger 1 , V. Bornand Jaunin* C. E. Boujon*
1 Small Animal Clinic, University of Berne, Länggass-Strasse 128, 3012 Berne, Switzerland *Institute of Animal Pathology, University of Berne, Länggass-Strasse 128, 3012 Berne, Switzerland
Copyright 1996 British Small Animal Veterinary Association
ABSTRACT

Canine juvenile-onset insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus is a rare disease. While pancreatic acinar atrophy is a well known picture in the dog, the simultaneous occurrence with an endocrine insufficiency has never been clearly established. The clinical, pathological and immunohistochemical findings of a three-month-old German shepherd dog with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus concurrent with exocrine pancreatic insufficiency are described.

karanuker · Wysłany: Pią 10:05, 06 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello Sandra,

please find this website and contact directly Dr Hamer.
[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

He can help your dog and you.

Best regards,

Tomek · Wysłany: Pią 10:07, 06 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello owner of Kaplan,
In Poznan there is 2 veterinary doctors with experience in pharmacological and natural therapy similar problems like Kaplan’s with home and wild animals.
If You’re interested to take a consultation send me a email.
[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Tomek

Yurga · Wysłany: Pią 10:28, 06 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello to all,

Thank you for all the help and given us the chance to look further !
I havent thought that so many people start to help and can only say thank you very much !

At 18.00 o clock I have the first results from the labor of parasitology.
We make a big check also Corona, Parvo and Rotavirus, Giardia ect.

I want to say some words to Barbara and Margaret.

Margaret since I told Barbara that Kaplan is not well I have never get a letter from you or even a word about it at all. Why do you leave me alone ?

Barbara

We have discussed that theme over and over. It always comes out that if was my fault that Kaplan is so sick. I have told you honestly from the begining that he is eating totaly different from every dog I have ever seen or owened. He has a abnorm and excessiv bad hunger from the first day and it was a problem to learn him how to eat ( hand feeded).

He needs more food why he is suffering from something - a absence syndrom!
You also another dogfriend know that he start to eat faeces from other dogs very early !
When the females go out he is standing at their back and wait until the faeces come out so that he can eat ! I was completly shocked when I saw that.

That episodes come and go and always inbetween he looks very well, but still inside he was not !

No Vet and and I believe no Professor can say that its possible to stop a defect even when you react very early.

I find dogs which take Enzyms with 5 month age and they are not well, even a young Diabetes mellitus dog at the age of 3 month. Your vet said that is not possible, hope he listen to my advice - it is !

Felix the specialist from the University has not given the best prognosis when we went their, because I have given him several fotos from those episodes and the treatment. He said it can be a try to set him on different Antibiotics for a long time , some try with cortison together, but no guarantees. The dogs I find under that therapys die , so what should I do ? How should I decide ?

For a time it goes better, but next break down and up to now no way out. So diagnostic again and standing for the old ways of treatment and must decide how to handle. I still know that his bowel also his stomache and pankreas will not heal, but may be a small hope to find something else.

All of my dogs have ever been to high qualtity of meat ( lower fat,quality which we eat by ourselfs). High Qualtiy of carbohydrates. Also the dogfood I use is not known as the very bad onces. You know I spent more money for my dogs than on everything else in life !

My dogs have a natural and free life in a big area, their are all really spoiled. I do not beat or train them or do stuff to them which stress them up. They can stay inside the house,sleep in my bed, use the garden how ever they want. I`m home 24 hours per day for my dogs. Also I take them for walks in the forest and do everything a dog like that is in need of - hope so.

Up to now I can`t understand why it should be my fault that my Baby is sick !

It is really hard when you are in a situation like that and all the breeder has to say is " Its your fault, you have feeded wrong"

You always said I have feeded to much !

Also we all should not ignore that if puppies get not enough food the kidneys can`t conzentrate the urin ! The urinclearence is low than. In the end those puppies have different livers.

Here is a feeding experiment about our talking please have a look and understand. [link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

I don`t know what to say anymore, I know I must wait what comes out in the new tests and wait for results.

But please don `t punish me for doing something wrong to kaplan, you know that is untrue.

You may understand how much that hurts me one day

Sandra

Yurga · Wysłany: Sob 9:42, 07 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello

first results from yesteray tested from HOME
Tierärztliches Labor Freiburg
PD Dr.Dr.habil. D. Barutzki, DipEVPC, FTA für Parasitologie

Parasits negativ
Giardia negativ
Coronavirus next week
Bacto next week
Parvovirus negativ

Rotavirus positiv

Yurga and Shiva (15 years ) are without any Symptoms. Yurgas Immunsystem was boostered with Plantavet, Shivas not she is to old !

Through this others problems kaplans suffers from is getten the Rota in his bowel.
I believe he is open up for a lot of problems ( Infections ) why this others sucks or his Immunsystem is not well.

We will look for the Immunsystem too.

Also dogs can suffer from Pankreasinsuffizienz and different bowel
problems too.

Malassimilation ( Malabsorption, Maldigestion)
the reasons can depend on Enymdefects, the liver ect. dogs can be born with this defect.

Further Diseases and research
Eosinophile Gastroenteritis
Immunreactiv Enteritis
Lymphplasmazelluläre Kolitis
Granulomatöse Kolitis

Colon irritabile (psychogen)
Koprostase

Yurga · Wysłany: Wto 19:55, 10 Mar 2009 Temat postu:

Hello

before we can move to the professor we simply landed at the worsest situation I have ever been through and needed to stabilise Kaplan otherwise he is going to die.
Vomiting, bloody diarrhoe, big swollen eyes, Bilirubin in the urin

Kaplans face get swollen under and over the eyes and the bladdy diarrhoe comes out like water . The diarrhoe looks like Ketchup and smells so badly.

We have checked bloodwork ( wait for results) , we also wait for last results from [link widoczny dla zalogowanych] and have made a new termin with this professor.

Please if you have any information from Kaplans line which can help us let us know.

Barbara did not answer, Margaret did not answer.

Please help us if you have any informations about those dogs !

Thanks
Sandra